Link and discuss
I'll make a more fleshed out post soon, but I wanted to share this.
Christophe Deslandes (whom I played against last week) ran a very successful Peasant Magic tournament in Paris last weekend. The winner: ProsTides (with Snaps instead of Framed).
Cheers,
Chris
Christophe Deslandes (whom I played against last week) ran a very successful Peasant Magic tournament in Paris last weekend. The winner: ProsTides (with Snaps instead of Framed).
Cheers,
Chris
posted by Chris Morling | 12:11 PM
17 Comments:
Impressed by the turnout, and somewhat by the decks. None stand out as amazing or terrible for that matter. I noted also the lack of Unglued material. I resented -Un- cards at first too but most are either kind of cool or unplayable anyway. Several decks look pretty good. Tides is great, Framed! is sooo good there and this deck won without it. Is Tides the best deck now, again? I have a few decks that beat tides but they get crushed by big-green-aggro and White Weenie. But neither of my big-green-aggro or White Weenie decks can beat Tides; with out without Sideboards.
This appears to still be the case.
Aggro > Contol
Control > Combo
Combo > Aggro
AGGRO:
mono green weenies
mono green fatties
WW
Aggro-black
Madness
Affinity
Animater
CONTROL:
monoblue counter-undo
UB Force
Blue Skies
MBC
Iso-Red
COMBO:
Tides
Elfclamp
Kobolds
Channel-Ball
Cephalid Breakfast/Life
Note: several decks overlap slightly one way or another. ElfClamp is sort of Combo-Aggro, BU Animater is tempo, sort of Combo-Aggro-Control (6 counters, Duress SB), WW has a toolbox of Controlish cards.
Ideas Unbound, in the 'Tides deck, seems like an excellent choice. Three cards for two blue - and if used on the turn the combo goes off, it bypasses discarding three.
Essentially, Ideas Unbound offers monstrous draw, with little cost. IMO, it's an excellent, must-have (much like Framed!) addition to the 'Tides decktype.
My own build of 'Tides substitutes Foil in place of Force of Will, for cost reasons. I've found that Foil in the 'Tides deck is very nearly as effective as Force (for a fraction of the $ cost). Anyone else agree?
I like Ideas Unbound in Tides too. Probably correct as a 3 of because they are really only good on the combo turn. It replaces the 4 Accumulated Knowledge I had been running, makes room for another Merchant Scroll, or adding that hard Counterspell I have been pencilling in but scratching out over and over again in each tweaking.
Force of Will is better. Foil is cheaper to buy and no slouch, but FOW is simply better. Thus, run the Force.
I think Tides might, indeed, be the best deck, but in the same way as Tooth and Nail is the best deck in Standard right now, not the same way as Affinity was a few months ago. It's the deck to beat, but it can be beat without sacrificing your deck against the rest of the field.
I agree that there's essentially a rock-paper-scissors metagame. I don't think it's control beats combo beats aggro beats control, but I agree that each deck has other decks against which it's very bad. For instance, IsoBurn beats ProsTides beats FatGreen beats IsoBurn, but IsoBurn is also good against (for instance) aggro black, and (as long as it has Duress and Hymn) aggro black is better against ProsTides than MBC.
In terms of which 0 cost counter to run in Tides, I don't like any of them. That's not quite true, I like them fine, I just don't think they're worth the uncommon slot. I don't think you have enough cards prior to going off, and while going off it's rare that you need to counter anything for zero mana.
I'm running Fact or Fiction as my 5th uncommon, and I'm almost always happy to see it. I love it when I have the combo in hand (since it's nice as an early part of going off) and I love it when I don't have the combo in hand (since it graps a bunch of cards). I'm also running 3 copies of Deep Analysis, which are especially good with Fact or Fiction. I imagine I'll cut them for Ideas Unbound, in which case I might have to rethink Fact or Fiction, but I really like it a lot.
I think you're right: Fact or Fiction is superior as an uncommons slot, compared to Force of Will. It digs five cards deep and nets 2-3 cards. Usually, on the combo turn, that's a huge advantage.
Actually, just today, I was playing 'Tides against Type-2 Affinity (with Arcbound Ravager). By the second turn, my butt got kicked down to nine, and only a Cloud of Faeries chump-blocker on turn 3 staved off defeat.
By my fourth turn, I was at 3 life and just starting the combo. Unfortunately, after the first Prosperity, my opponent drew into - and played - Shrapnel Blast for five.
Here's where Foil/FoW came in handy: I dug 18 cards deep with Impulse/Peer Through the Depths to nab Foil.
I guess, to make a long story short, there has got to be plenty of aggro red decks that can lay enough blitzkrieg on the table to get within striking distance (most likely finishing with 1-2 Fireblasts after the Prosperities) on turn four - and 'Tides is already packed to the gills with draw effects.
Sure, 'Tides revolves around draw - but I think it may already have enough. A single manaless hard-counter seems to be capable of swinging an otherwise lost game.
Regarding Force Of Will, I can share a similar experience playing Tides VS Blue Skies. Skies has some maindeck counters and Tides Ramping up a bunch of mana I spent 2 for Merchant Scroll getting a FOW knowing that Skies had 2 mana open for a Counter and likely a FOW too. Tides hit a big Prosperity and as expected Skies hit a hard counter and then Tides used the FOW and made sure the first Prosperity hit. FOW I believe needs to be there, especially with more and more decks packing their own counters, and especially with other combo decks rivaling the speed of Tides. FOW can save it self from losing sometimes, instead of just insuring it's own win.
I have experimented around with Tides Common maindeck and am torn between 2 Counterspells for later in the combo turn as a Prosperity will feed the opponent Fireblasts, Force of Wills and the like. (I include more counters in the SB for such cards) Or how I have it now 2 Conjurers Bauble. My Tides runs 4 Merchant Scrolls which shuffle the library and they put back in more High Tides or Framed! or other just potent cards for the situation. They are cantrips that can be played on the turns before going off as often Tides does next to nothing those first few turns but drop land so the cantrip uses early mana that would not likley be used anyway. It thins and makes the deck more potent.
I had one game where the combo turn was about to fizzle because of a counter from the opponent but I had just enough for a Frantic Search and keep going. But the Search forced me to discard my lone Feldon's Cane. But remember that I had 2 Baubles in the deck I was OK and went on to cast the Bauble and then the Cane for the win.
By the way, Foil does have some advantages over Force of Will:
It can be hard cast for cheaper (why anyone would do this is beyond me); it allows you to discard an island and any other card - which means it combines nicely with Deep Analysis; it can pitch, on the combo turn, two worthless islands, rather than remove a precious blue.
Prior to the combo turn, obviously, it is completely inferior to FoW - however, on the combo turn, it is superior in 'Tides. Considering there's only space for one, I would advise Foil over FoW (because of the weight of its advantages and $ reasons).
With regard to the Conjurer's Baubles, I think the concept is great, but it seems more prudent to simply pack an extra Feldon's Cane. Are there any other situations in which a CB would be a better choice?
Well the Conjurers Bauble is not card in hand disadvantage like another Cane would be. The worst that happens with a Bauble is for one mana it replaces itself. Casting it is no biggie when pre combo mana often goes unused and during combo mana is usually plentiful. The Bauble is at worst a cantrip and best a deck thinner, limited search, and potential to save a discarded Cane or bring back to the library another High Tide, Framed, or counterspell (Foil, FOW or other) and with 4 Merchant Scrolls to get that card, or just shuffle the library to have a better chance of drawing it. It is one of those tiny victories put potentailly a big one all for just one mana.
I definitely like Bauble more than a second Feldon's Cane. The only time you want to draw a second Cane is if the first one was dealt with, in which case Bauble is marginally worse (2 mana instead of 1 for the Cane, but you generally have plenty of mana lying around at this stage). Generally, you're just cycling the Bauble, while the second Cane would be a dead draw.
On the other hand, I don't know why you'd want two Canes in the first place. The worst case scenario is that your opponent gets very lucky and nails your Cane with a first turn Duress, and then you have to draw that game. For it to be an issue, your opponent has to Duress your Cane 3 times in a match (or win another game, but CofferKing is such a good matchup and AggroBlack is such a bad matchup that it's not too relevant). I'm willing to take my chances.
With all this talk about 0 casting cost Counters, I'm wondering if you guys are running 4 x Disrupt. Mana curves are tight enough (and Tides is fast enough) that Disrupt is frequently a 1 mana cantrip counterspell. It doesn't counter Scepter or Pestilence or Creatures, but that's not too big a deal since you're so much faster than those cards. It's the reason why Fireblast isn't too big a deal. If you're going off, Disrupt cycles for 1U whenever you play an instant or sorcery, so it's less likely to be dead than Force of Will. Plus, it's a common.
Cheers,
Chris
White Weenie may have one more weapon to fight Tides I just stumbled upon. Although it is an Uncommon and an enchantment and costs 2W and must be in play before Tides goes off.
PENANCE: Enchantment, 2W, Put a card from you hand on top of your library: the next time a black or red source of your choice would deal damage to you this turn, prevent that damage.
At a glance it may not make sence but if WW can get this down before the Tides combo turn. Tides cannot win. WW can just put cards back on the library again and again, unless Tides can make WW draw 50 or so cards on one prosperity which is fairly unlikely. Actually Penance may be able to put them back in the middle of a Prosperity??? I don't know the ruling on Prosperity, all at once or a chance to put some cards back mid-Prosperity? Anyway The card is a least something WW can do, not great and it sucks up the Uncommons (and probably the 5th Uncommon for an Enlightened Tutor to help find one) but if WW really wants a chance against Tides it may need this. WW is good because of the commons anyway and may not really miss it's Uncommons. Plus Penance is not useless against red or black decks either. It does an OK job of hosing Iso-burn, MBC, Goblins, and aggroblack as well as helping the Tides matchup.
Seems extreme, but WW builds are almost all auto-losses against Tides unless Penance can be brought in. Is there anything else WW can do. 4 Stripmines?
I like Disrupt a lot and yes it does cycle later for 1U and casting an instant or sorcery spell. I love it early when say Aggroblack is on the draw and sends a Duress at you. You can Disrupt it, counter th Duress and draw a card, and you are right there up one in card advantage. Not at all what they wanted to happen. Same when countering a second turn Hymn or Sinkhole from aggro-black, those are big swings in card advantage and can turn a game around. Disrupts are often dead untill the combo turn against aggro but that is generally OK as pure aggro is often to slow for Tides anyway. Aggro control is bad but the control elements of say Skies that are instants or sorceries can be matched by Disrupt to some degree. I hate when they can pay the one though which is why Daze so often just sits in my hand on many decks. At least Disrupt draws a card though so yes I like Disrupt. But I still feel Force of Will, or some good point on were mentioned regarding Foil, are necessary for backup. The Sideboard for Tides ought to include 3-6 Blue Blasts too, for more counter help for games 2-3 but Force can be big in many matchups for game one.
I really like the idea of putting Penance in White Weenie.
If you're using the Empyrial Armor build, with three to four main-decked Enlightened Tutors, Penance seems like an easy fit in the sideboard. Game two, taking tutors into consideration, Penance becomes a 60-70% first-turn draw, playable by turn three.
Penance also does well against most of the decks in format, making it even a decent main-deck consideration.
However, I must ask the question: Is it superior to WW packing four sideboarded Feldon's Canes? WW has four ways to fetch the cane, meaning it is very likely to have one, or more, canes on the table on the combo turn. The way 'Tides draws through its deck with search utilities, it would seem impossible for it to win against a WW build that has drawn into, and played, a Feldon's Cane - unless it uses more canes.
Actually WW playing it's own Feldon's Cane as an answer to Tides does not do much. Neither does Tormod's Crypt for that matter even though it seems it should.
1) WW does not put that many cards into it's grave to cycle back in. The deck is 90% permanents and Tides has no removal so WW really has no graveyard to shuffle back in.
2) Even is WW does get a considerable amout of cards in the grave - and gets them shuffled back in, Tides will just Prosperity enough for it to draw itself AND you out and force a draw. And since they probably already won game one, a draw is not of much use in games 2 and 3.
The Crypt has a better chance of helping as it comes down for free and because Tides has a full grave mid-combo and the Crypt can be used in responce to a Cane activation and make them lose it, but again they can just make the same Prosperity and force a game draw for games 2-3.
So alone, Tormod's Crypt and Feldon's Cane are not answers to beating Prosperity-Tides decks.
Penance does help beat Tides because it takes cards you have already drawn (from Prosperities) and puts them back, but I think if Tides can make a big enough Prosperity all at once for like 50, it can still beat the Penance using player. Tides is tough to crack, especially for white!
Feldon's Cane is useless. It has a strictly negative impact on almost any deck's chances against Tides, and definitely has a negative impact in White Weenie.
Tormod's Crypt is significantly better, but still awful. If you win game 1 and draw an early Crypt in games 2 and 3 (and Tides is only running one Cane and no Boomerang) then you win the match. You still need a random upset, though.
Penance seems much better, but you're slowing yourself down significantly, which gives Tides more time to draw either an answer (bounce, if they're running it) or a "perfect" draw that allows them to generate something like 50-55 mana. It probably has a significant impact on the matchup, but still leaves it negative.
Penance is also really, really bad as a hoser for Red or Black. I might consider it vs. CofferKing or Stupid Burn, but certainly not against IsoBurn, Goblins, AggroBlack, etc.
Honestly, I think you're barking up the wrong tree trying to beat Tides with White Weenie. It's not going to happen. When you choose to play White Weenie, you're making certain assumptions about the metagame, and one of them is, "I'm not going to see more than one copy of Tides in the Swiss and I'll see no copies of Tides in the single elimination rounds." If you're not willing to make that assumption, don't play White Weenie (or FatGreen, which has a similarly awful matchup vs. Tides.)
That's not the end of the world. If you choose to play Tides you're also making an assumption about the metagame: I'll avoid decks with Counterspell. When you play IsoBurn, you're assuming that you won't play against FatGreen (or maybe White Weenie and/or CofferKing, depending on your read of the matchups.)
We're in a position now where there doesn't appear to be an unbeatable deck. That seems like a pretty healthy metagame.
How does Elf-Clamp do against Tides?
I don't have much data on the matchup but each goldfish around the same time. Does whoever goes first determine the victor? Tides has little disruption (other than a few counters) and most styles don't have maindeck bounce. While Elf-Clamp doesn't really have any disruption just a big draw engine and a huge amount of creatures or just a few pumped up really big creatures.
The format has cards that can 'hate' Elf-Clamp, like Tides, but just different tools (and there are many more of them, although discard is much less effective against elves than it is against Tides), like creature removal (Terror+), or burn, or bounce, or creature control (Master Decoy+).
I don't hear much about Elf-Clamp, is it a player? If it has the ability to race Tides perhaps it needs more attention focussed on it.
My push for best deck right now is Ninja Skies. It beats Tides (or other combo with 8 counters 11 combo relevant counters after SB) and with so much evasion and counters and draw and bounce (Waterfront Bouncer) it has game against nearly anything aggro, and again with it's own counters beats MBC and nearly anything else resembling control. It has some trouble with Iso-red if the Scepter slips in without a counter but this is fairly rare, and the latter games when the SB blasts (that were there for Tides) come out for Skies, but still this is not all for naught. If Skies stops the Scepter all is usually well. Skies has too much draw (Gush, yes which can be blasted, and Ninja same deal) and too many counters (and it's own blasts in the SB) to really worry about 1for1 blast annoyances. Plus most Iso-red SBs are going to have less than 8 blasts. Sure Volshok sorcerers would be bad but they too have to hit. Plus Skies can bring in Pro-Red fliers (Withersee Faeries) or play fat ended flyers (Illusionary Forces) that need more than one burn spell to finish (although only one blast will do it sure) or play Phrexian Warbeast or Mishras Factory.
NINJA-SKIES
BLUE
4 Flying Men
4 Cloud Pirates
4 Cloud Faeries
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Waterfront Bouncer
3 Unstable Mutation
3 Gush
4 Brainstorm
1 Standstill (U)
4 Force of Will (U)
4 Counterspell
2 Illusionary Forces
LAND
17 Islands
3 Mishras Factory
SB
1 Waterfront Bouncer
2 Boomerang
3 Hydroblast / Witherseed Faeries
3 Annul
3 Manaleak
3 Phrexian Warbeast / Tim
ElfClamp is a pet deck of mine. I like it a lot. I think it's a lot of fun. I think that ab initio (that is, without experiment) it's one of the best aggro decks in the format (along with Affinity and maybe Goblins). In practice, in the actual metagame, I think it's a terrible, terrible deck. This makes me sad.
When you play Tides, you make a bet that you aren't going to run into anything like the Skies deck you posted. When you play ElfClamp, you bet that you aren't going to run into any deck with Burn or Pestilence. IsoRed is amazing against ElfClamp. MBC is amazing against ElfClamp. I might be willing to bet against Fish, but there's no way I'm betting against Red and Black.
The Tides vs. ElfClamp matchup is obviously a largely non-interactive race. I think Tides is about a half-turn faster than ElfClamp (ElfClamp splits its wins between turns 4 and 5, Tides wins on turn 4 more consistently), and so the matchup favors Tides, but it isn't one sided. I wouldn't play ElfClamp if I were expecting Tides, but I wouldn't despair if I got paired against someone playing it.
The Skies deck looks good. I'm still putting my money on IsoBurn as the best deck in the format (but it's awful against big green guys, so it doesn't wreck the metagame.)
Cheers,
Chris
I meant Tormod's Crypt, not Feldon's Cane. Go alcohol. Apologies for confusion.
Does anyone have any decklists for ElfClamp? The deck-build I've got uses Hunting Pack as the kill - and Skullclamp to get there.
I was thinking that Concordant Crossroads should somehow fit into ElfClamp, in some fashion - but I can't figure out how.
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